Episode 32: “It's Time to Evolve Your Sales Process for Bigger Profits"

Marshall Atkinson  

 Are you in sales for decorated apparel? If so, you might want to pay attention to this new episode of Success Stories. As Josh Appelbaum, who runs the apparel division at Hit Promotional Products, we'll be discussing his approach to sales. 

That's right; we'll be chatting about the evolution of the apparel sales process and how you should be thinking about if you want to increase your numbers for your company. Josh has an excellent track record in this area, and his unique perspective on selling will make a great topic for the show. So get ready to take some notes. So Josh, welcome to the Success Stories podcast,

Josh Appelbaum  

Marshall. Thanks, man. How are you?

Marshall Atkinson  

I'm doing excellent. And I'm so happy to be here with you and talk about our apparel sales. Because, you know, I've been doing this for a while. And I think it's going to be a fun show. And I know you've got a great track record, too. And I can't wait to see how this conversation turns out.

Josh Appelbaum  

I love it. Yeah. Thanks, man.

I'm looking forward to chatting as well. And I appreciate you having me. 

Marshall Atkinson  

Hey, no problem. So before we get going, just this, nobody knows who's this Josh guy. Why don't you kind of let everybody know what you're about? And you know what you've done and what you do now?

Josh Appelbaum  

Sure, sure. So I am not quite an industry nomad, but not quite one of those people that stayed in the same place for 25 years. I ended up in this industry by complete accident; I was selling office coffee in Chicago and met a friend of a friend of a friend who worked at Alpha Broder Alpha Shirt Company at the time. And we were out, you know, having a good time. And he made some comments to me at 2:30 in the morning that I should sell T-shirts for a living. So now, more than a decade later, here I am; I've started at Alpha, worked there for a reasonable amount of time, bounced around different territories, responsibilities, training, stuff like that spent a year on the distributor side, which is really cool. Not something that was in the plans, but it sort of gave me a unique perspective on the industry and what our distributor partners go through. Also, as soon as humanly possible, I bounced back to the supplier side where I do genuinely believe it's easier; I spent a couple of years at Cutter and Buck running the strategic account division there, which was amazing, kind of in its own right. And just such a cool company. If you guys out there are not familiar with Cutter and Buck, I recommend checking them out. And I'm currently the vice president of apparel at hit. So it's sort of come full circle, you know, in the sense that I've stayed with the supplier landscape. But I did hit that one year on the distributor side to kind of we'll call round myself out a little bit. And you live in Wisconsin out, right? I do. Yeah. My wife and I actually split time between this tiny town, Lake Mills, Wisconsin, and Sarasota, Florida.

Marshall Atkinson  

Sarasota. I'm from Florida. I know you. I love Florida. So you're

Josh Appelbaum  

you went to that school in the Panhandle that we don't talk about. That's a basketball school now.

Marshall Atkinson  

We will get into that. But no, sir. But I can talk Florida State all day. But we'll just leave that off. Are you ready for some questions? 

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, absolutely. Let's hit it. 

Marshall Atkinson  

Right. So the first one is: when we think about the evolution of sales for this industry, where have we come from? Where do you think it's going these days? And what's different? 

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, I mean, you know, I try to use my body of work as the prime example of where at least the supplier sales evolution has come from. And then I think it trickles down to the distributors as well. When I first started, this was a roll your rack in with a 700-page catalog and talked about, you know, how on time your distribution centers were; I think it was as much a product sell as it was a logistic sell. But at the end of the day, you know, it kind of married down to who had stock and who didn't, and, you know, who's offering a better rebate and whatnot. So, as far as that goes, I think we've, as an industry, we've brought ourselves forward, closer to traditional consumerism, and we've become a little edgier, right? You're starting to see, you know, distributor sales rep specifically go out to these, you know, these fortune 500 and fortune 50 companies, and they're selling digital solutions. They're selling eCommerce; they're selling, printing decoration on-demand; they're still selling capabilities, you know, much like we were talking about back in the day when Alpha Shirt Company was still Alpha Shirt Company. But we're talking about it in different ways. And we're talking about it in a, I think in a manner that gets people more in touch with their consumer side, which is vital, right? It's sort of the next evolution of how we do things, which is pretty cool.

Marshall Atkinson  

So well, I, you know, the more I talk to people, and I think the evolution of this industry is moving toward the unit of one. It's moving toward mass personalization with variable data; there's going to be, you know, fulfillment, digital, more automation, where the end -- you know, the manufacturer, the decorator sometimes isn't even really looking at the decoration, because it's all coming through, like an automated funnel through a website and to the DTG press. And they're just learning the shirt and printing. And it's all barcoding and going out the door. And I just see that as just kind of the new wave of stuff that's going on. But I don't think that's going to replace, you know, that we need 10,000 shirts for this program that's going to a DC for or it's going to a male fulfillment program, we're just going to send everything out in mass. And one thing, you know, I think there's a lot of different flavors that are going on these days. What are you seeing? And how do you think that you know, this is emerging as trends?

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, I mean, I think you're spot on. First of all, nothing replaces, I think the traditional ways or the traditionalism of our industry, I think it's gonna continue to evolve. But you're right, the larger distributor groups of the world are still going to run fulfillment programs with massive spot buys. And that's going to keep all of our presses running. And that's going to keep us busy. And that's going to keep our partnerships with you know, Mills, and vendors and stuff like that, you know, really fresh, I think what you're really seeing is an evolution of that business. So let's take everybody's favorite fast-food chain and have a conversation about how they've gone into fashion retail. And they've, you know, started to expand into brand collaborations and stuff like that; those aren't part of your traditional landscape of kind of a fulfillment solution with large spot buys. That's a combination of decoration on-demand, easy-to-use web platforms that allow for personalization down to one, and your big fulfillment program all wrapped into one. So I think what it is, is it's an ability to talk intelligently about sort of the legacy of our industry and how we've gotten to where we are, and how we're going to continue to sort of you know, modernize that look and feel, but also being nimble enough to say, Okay, I want this fulfillment program for half a million units annually. But I also need to be able to provide a solution down to the single unit with personalization for each thing. I think it's just maybe spreading our wings a little bit and becoming really strong at a couple of things, and maybe sort of dump-in the stuff our traditional customers aren't looking for anymore.

Marshall Atkinson  

So what are you guys working on? Are you working on print on demand? Do you do fulfillment? Are you doing like the embroidery version of print on demand? Where like that, I mean, not just for putting an order. I mean, it's all automated, where we're not touching anything and the outputs happening, right?

Josh Appelbaum  

Sure. Yeah, I mean, we're doing a little bit everything, you know, we just rolled it out a decoration on-demand platform that, you know, allows us to decorate down to the single piece, you know, on things that we keep in stock, kind of a limited stock model type idea for DTG embroidery heat transfer, you know, our main stick into the marketplace is we want to make things easy and be as much of a one-stop-shop as we possibly can. So while that's a project that we're kind of juggling in one corner, you know, we're also looking at how we integrate with, you know, traditional web store platforms and eCommerce hosts like Shopify and Magento, and stuff like that, to make things easy, right? It's an easy button. But I would argue that the bulk of our business is still the traditionalist behavior. It's just evolved into, here's this traditional order that we're used to getting hits, providing a single invoice, which is great. We're also capturing all of that data through an XML or an EDI connection and really bringing that in-house and not having anybody touch it until it makes it to art, which I think is part of that traditionalist evolution that needs to take place to continue to maintain relevancy.

Marshall Atkinson  

And the piece count on orders are you seeing things evolve into closer to lots of really small orders going out and are more personalized? Are you seeing it's still the same with larger orders going to either like a big fulfillment program where you're actually the fulfillment, or you're shipping, you know, three pallets of stuff somewhere

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, you know, honestly, it's customer-dependent. Some of our customers have really, you know, taken the plunge into sort of this on-demand world over there creating web stores for even, you know, huge end-user clients, but their redemption sites or their employee stores that allow employees to put their name on a left chest or something like that, in addition to what other whatever other decoration we're offering. So it's a little bit of both, I would say the average order size has probably decreased by 10 to 12 units here over a year, which may not seem like a lot, but it's massive in regards to the order volume that we get. It's a big number. And I think it's going to continue to do that, obviously, with Pitt and so many other suppliers, adding decoration on-demand, and sort of the tech capability that comes with that, you know, I believe that it's going to continue to shrink, and we're going to have customers that do one piece, one piece of art every single day over the course of 700 orders, I think that that's absolutely at least a part of the wave of the future.

Marshall Atkinson  

Right. Okay. So how to use the notion of your value proposition as the go-to strategy for what you do? Is that changing, because I think, with technology with different fabrics and decoration techniques, and I mean, not just DTG, but direct to film, and just all types of really cool things that we can get into how does the value proposition work into how you're selling?

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question, I think it's to almost back out of like a general value prop and pull forward into a little bit more of a focused approach, right. So, you know, among the things that we're out in the marketplace doing, is having conversations about the value that's important, individually to the customer, obviously, you know, it's got, however, many customers 30,000 accounts, or whatever it is. So we're not doing that in every corner of the world. But we're having enough strategic conversations were sort of tailoring our value prop to our customer's needs, you know, the beauty of this industry is that customer needs basically fit in like a five-gallon bucket of things, right, you have the customer that needs kidding, and fulfillment, you have the customer that needs a ton of inventory, you're the customer who needs low minimums, you're the customer who needs cheap, and you're the customer who needs fast turn times. And odds are, you know, those things kind of overlap and intersect, you know, but the thing we really focus on in the marketplace, is having an understanding of what our capabilities and capacities are, but then be taking those having meaningful conversations with our customers. And sometimes our end users, you know, kind of depending on what that access looks like, and figuring out what's most vital to them. So it's not quite artificial intelligence, because humans having the conversation, but we've incorporated that same notion into our website, when you go on and search for a koozie or pan or T-shirt or whatever we have, you know, AI suggestions that pop up down below based on what you search for, here's what you know, we think might be a value to you. And we're having the reps go out in the field and do the same thing. So I think it's you know, it's just a little bit more of a tailored approach and kind of to tack into your lead in there about taking some notes. I mean, man, if I could offer any advice to any distributor or any supplier salesperson out there, it's spending more time getting to know your customers, the canned approach, now more than ever is irrelevant. No matter how great you think your solutions might be. If they're not relevant to hear having a conversation with it doesn't matter. So in the case of Hit, and me personally, what we're going out and doing is really hammering away at the details of what our customers need from us. And we're kind of tailoring our programs and our offerings around that.

Marshall Atkinson  

Yeah. So there are two questions that I like asking one is, you know, what are your biggest challenges? And how can I help you solve those, you know, that goes right to that value proposition? And the other question is, how can I help you grow? Yeah, right. And so we're either solving a problem where they're, it's, it's the painful thing, it's the thing they're really struggling with, if we can help solve that pain, then we win. And the other one is, can we help them grow? Because everybody has a sales target? We're trying to get to the imaginary next level. I'm doing the air quotes here. You know, I know you can't see it, but I'm doing air quotes, the next level and if we can help our customers get to that next level, then we're immediately their best friend.

Josh Appelbaum  

Absolutely. It's true and the only way to really get there and growth means different things to different people. The only way to get there is to ask, right the absence of it. Asking questions. And getting down to why somebody exists in the product category segment that they exist in, why they're in business, why they're having a conversation with you about their business. Those are valuable, right? You know, that's how we go out into the marketplace. It's how I talk to customers. And that's really the only way to get to a value proposition that works for that individual.

Marshall Atkinson  

But it's so funny sometimes to think salespeople. And it sounds weird to say this, but they're scared to talk to customers about this stuff. It's so easier to let that three pound catalog hit the table and go, Hey, pick something, pick something out, and we'll throw a logo on it. Why? Cuz that's easier, right? Why? Why can't we do the hard stuff? Josh? Well, I

Josh Appelbaum  

think because, you know, the the ease of product knowledge is a heck of a lot simpler than digging into somebody's issues. I can tell you firsthand when I first started alpha, you know, we didn't have a private label line to really speak up, right. So I was in the marketplace selling Adidas and other brands and stuff like that. And I'd have you know, all my biggest customers tell me, you know, that's great. Adidas is great. Thanks so much for coming in. But San Mar has X, Y, and Z. And we're just gonna go ahead and put that in, you know, the program that we're referencing.

Marshall Atkinson  

Hey, did I mention we're sponsored by S&S.

Josh Appelbaum  

 Perfect. S&S is a great example of a supplier that used to routinely kick my tail and but No, in all seriousness, and I think it's it's a, we get down these rabbit holes as salespeople, especially young salespeople have, I'm going to learn the product, I'm going to be the best, I'm going to have a really organized rolling rack, I'm going to come in and I'm going to offer samples and I'm going to bring Panera and I'm going to do this whole thing. And all that's great. Know your product line. Know what you're talking about, know your company's value proposition. But also be prepared to learn about your customer. Ask those tough questions, let them complain about instances that may have occurred with your company that they're not thrilled about. It goes a long way it goes further than almost anything else. Just letting people vent sometimes goes further than anything else. And that's how, you know, you end up in a position where you know, you have customers that really start to sort of count on you as a partner. That's where we're at this is the eliminating the transactional nature of our business in the sense of, you know, order hopping is a real value.

Marshall Atkinson  

Well, we want to be long term, we want to be there, not just for this order, but you know, 150 orders down the road.

Josh Appelbaum  

That's right, and how sticky can we get? And in how many categories can we achieve that stickiness, I think is really a great way to look at it. And if you're just the guy who quotes low on big jobs, you're not going to have a ton of success. You have to find that commonality with your customer that allows you to relate to them relate to their issues, and then help provide some sort of solution.

Marshall Atkinson  

Like what you hear so far, be sure to subscribe so you can get the latest from Success Stories. And now here's Jessica Jacobs with the S&S Spotlight.

One of the things that I've been telling people forever is to quit selling ink on cotton. Right? Your your value isn't, hey, this is what it costs us to print. And I'm going to mark it up a little bit. And there you go. Right. So what are your best tips you can give a shop to differentiate itself from the competition because we don't want to be a commodity. Right? Right. We don't want to be hey, I can get that a nickel somewhere else the nickel cheaper somewhere else. We don't want that. Right? We want to be the person where they can't wait to order from us and price actually doesn't really matter so much. How do we get to that level? Josh?

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's different depending on on the scope of your business, you know, if you're a big contract shop or a big print shop, you know, the things that I appreciate, as a supplier, you know, I understand hit hit does the whole single invoice solution but as a, you know, somebody who's worked for blank suppliers in the past, you know, I really appreciate just a little bit of organization. I know that that sounds really broad, but we're talking about a subset of the industry that doesn't practice traditional business practices right in the contract decorating landscape you know, so for you shop owners out there that listen to this and you're worried about you know, the guy down the street with the five head manual undercutting you, don't just be better at your business, ask questions of your customers find out what matters for the order item, sales leader Alpha Broder years ago, guy by the name of Chris Blakeslee, who now runs Bella canvas, tell me that customers get to have three things, right, they can have it super fast, they can have it super cheap, they can have it when they want, you get to choose the three. Okay, and I think that that value sort of resonates even still with our shop partners, and even traditional, you know, PPD distributors, ask the right questions, get to a point where you tailor the program to the customer base that you have, and really roll from there and stop making it about price don't automatically go and say I can absolutely beat that price. That's great. You know, that's great. And they do this that the other thing, but I'm going to beat that, and I'm going to do you know, things A, B and C, it's just a big race to the bottom. And there's no, there's no end to that other than going out of business or not being profitable, which I would argue, you know, one sort of leads the other anyways. But, you know, aside from knowing your accounts, and holding strong on kind of what your ideals are, be good at what you're good at. And I again, I realized that that sounds like a stripped-down statement. But understanding your business and being able to speak about it eloquently, and be good at what you're speaking about, goes miles and miles and miles and miles beyond saying I do everything. Don't be somebody who does everything. Nobody can actually do everything except for Amazon, and even they mess stuff up. So if you stay in your lane, and you choose to be really good at what your core competencies are, price becomes less of a consideration for just about everybody.

Marshall Atkinson  

Yeah, so what would I think about this? Right? So I know there are two things that really can help you set yourself apart from everybody else. One is come to the table with better ideas than everybody else's greed. Okay, so if you're just a printer, you're just an embroiderer. You're a commodity. You're just like everybody else, you know, how hard is it to print a shirt? How hard is it to sell a logo and a left chest and a golf shirt? Come on, right? But if you're bringing creative solutions to that particular problem, and you're the expert, or you've got a great design team, or you've got a great web store service, or you've got something that is going to just propel you above and beyond everybody else, you're not only building a castle, right? Where you've got a moat that you're building around it, because nobody in your area is going to be able to touch you because you've got things that they can't deliver on, which is better ideas and better, better problem-solving. And I think You know, so the more that you look into that, the better off you're going to be. This means that you're going to have to have a really good team that can creatively think that can ask those better questions that can come up with a different program or a way to solve that problem that nobody's thought of. And that really means that you got to be on your game. And so reaching out to your suppliers reaching out to folks like S&S or reaching out to people like you or me or whoever that have these ideas, and I've done this stuff that allows you to grow and then allows you to be better than everybody else and own that market. Don't you think?

Josh Appelbaum  

I do. If you wouldn't have told me that this was sponsored by S&S, I still would have said this. So Matt, and whoever else over there that is going to listen, S&S does a great job now of staying in their lane. So they've always been a really great blank supplier. But now all of a sudden, they have all these reps, who are out in the field who are super engaging on social media. And they have what I assume is some sort of, you know, the graphic or visual team in-house that's creating these tremendous retail-inspired vignettes. And they're going and putting that out into the marketplace. And they're creating a sort of a lure to doing business with SNS, right. So when I think about SNS, now, if I need something for a customer, I think about how I can find, you know, kind of different pieces to complete a collection for a retail customer, rather than, Oh, they have been pricing on the 5000. Right. And that's a complete mindset shift. But they've also chosen to go out into the marketplace and be better about stuff like that be more retail facing, be more engaging with consumers. And I think that's so vital. And you know, what you mentioned about being somebody who just prints on a t-shirt or in burgers on a polo, all that's a part of your own personal company, value proposition, be good at it if you're going to be loud about it. And when you're are good at it be super proud and hold your ground, I will say that there's a whole heck of a lot to lose if you continue to race to the bottom. And there's nothing but respect and good business to gain. If you hold your ground, you know what you're good at, and you kind of just stick to that path.

Marshall Atkinson  

Right? Right. Alright, so last question. Let's talk about providing a great experience for customers, as I think that can set you apart from everybody else. Caution shops use the notion of, you know, problem-solving, we've talked about that, rather than simply selling in Konkan. So it's the experience that they're dealing with you through the whole process through the initial discovery through you know, quoting through the production through shipping invoicing, follow up all that kind of stuff. How you set yourself apart a lot of times, is they're thinking about you as a company. So how do you define that experience? Josh, that experiential kind of touch?

Josh Appelbaum  

No. So I think it's the best way to provide, you know, sort of an enhanced consumer experience value proposition, you know, as we call it in in an old school setting, is to figure out what drives you as a consumer? How do you like to shop? Do you like, you know, the single clip, Amazon experience? Do you like to browse? Do you like to have simple invoicing? Do you like multiple emails, after you place an order, and tailor your approach that way, it's not gonna work for everybody, but if you're good at what you do, and that's your approach, people appreciate repetition, and generally speaking, quality. So, you know, look, for us, I mean, we try and provide an experience that's as close to you know, your favorite web stores as humanly possible, especially on the decoration side or in the decoration on-demand side, you know, where you're looking at an order being placed and instant confirmation or it's uploaded, the shirt is printed labels created customer gets tracking and off you go, right, that's the end of the story. You know, that's what we believe sort of sets us apart, at least on the supplier side, you know, but for the shops and the, you know, the traditional distributors out there. If I'm wanting you guys I'm going out and selling a consumer experience and I'm tailoring it towards how I like to buy I'm not any different than anybody else. I like to buy things and I like to make them simple. And I think the best that you guys can do that. You know, we certainly enjoy working with you more, when that's the case and I'm sure your customers do as well. But once you pick it, stick with it, become really good at it and then roll it out as a part of your you know, your company's wise statement.

Marshall Atkinson  

And to kind of add to that, I would also say, talk to your customers and find out how they like to be communicated to I know, younger folks, absolutely hate talking to people, and would rather do everything by a text. I am an old-school dude. And I don't want anything to do with you texting me or calling me I want an email. So, you know, I think just really kind of understanding where they live, and what they value. And I think if we spend some time talking with people and find out, you know, what matters to them, then we can tailor that type of approach. And I also believe that it's, it's never too early to communicate. So even if you don't know the whole answer, if you just let people know that you're working on it, you know, let's say UPS lost a package. Somebody is investigating it, and maybe it's 430 just sending an email going, Hey, we're still waiting on a UPS to get back to us. We don't know anything, hopefully here for something like tomorrow, because what I've known from doing all these crazy reporters over the years, is that if you don't tell people it stuff, right? What happens is they make up in their heads their own story, which is usually the worst story imaginable. Like, they just don't care about me. Otherwise, they would have called right. So even if you don't have the answer, just communicate, say, "Hey, we're still working on it. We'll be in touch here soon as we find something." That does wonders to really help people understand where you're coming from and doing things and those small touches that really matter don't you think, Josh?

Josh Appelbaum  

I do. And I also believe I get the propensity to, you know, to think the worst in a situation I do. I'm like a self-proclaimed doomsday us. But at the same time, if you have a relationship with a customer, and you trust them, and they trust you, then till that trust is broken beyond repair, trust us to get it done. You know, that's a big key with kind of what's gone on, you know, in the last 1820 months, I think people just think the worst, if there's any lesson I can pull out of that it's, trust us trust in your relationships, continue to stick to what you're good at, and continue to be communicative. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Absolutely. over-communicate to the point where it's obnoxious at times. But yeah, I mean, I think it's it's the way of the future to kind of maintain some human connection outside of all the tech stuff.

Marshall Atkinson  

Yeah. And double-check your information. You know, I've had instances where I typed in someone's email address, you know, Joe Schmo, whatever, it's so and so calm, and didn't realize it was .net. And the whole time I'm going, how come this guy will return? I thought it was some big rush thing. Right? And because I'm an idiot --

Josh Appelbaum  

Hey, we maybe have the most, the two most commonly misspelled names in the industry. I can't tell you the number of times somebody forwarded me an email after they sent me six angry ones to Josh Appelbaum, right.?Just furious that I haven't answered any of them to the point where I now have that APPLEBAUM email created as a dummy inbox, so it forwards to my email.

Marshall Atkinson  

You know, in Marshall, people spell it with one L all the time. And on my, that's not me. That's the sheriff. 

Josh Appelbaum  

I, for those of you out there that are looking to connect with Marshall beyond this podcast, it's Marshall like the amplifier guitar amp company.

Marshall Atkinson  

Yes, we get it. Right. Cool. Well, hey, thanks so much for your time today, Josh. I really appreciate hearing your story of success. So as someone wants to learn more about what you do or how you can help them, what's the best way to contact you since we just had a big thing about email addresses?

Josh Appelbaum  

Yeah, we did. I honestly jappelbaum@hitpromo.net or LinkedIn, either way, is great. You know, we can connect and exchange numbers. I'm happy to talk to anybody at any point about how we continue to evolve as an industry on the wearable side. Marshall, you and I had a conversation recently about how important it is that we evolve. And we continue to maintain relevancy. We continue to, you know, bring that updated consumer experience to the table. So if anyone wants to rap about that, I'm around.

Marshall Atkinson  

Cool. Well, thanks, Josh. Really appreciate it. And we'll talk to you soon. 

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